Curse

Lady Raenef · Dec 27, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

I agree with the OP post in a long run, despite the fact that I'm rank 2. I know that I'm not a great player because if I was, I'd have a higher rank. Initially, I tried to get some practice and I managed to get a team who let me repeatedly play with them. I earned 84 fame in the two days I played, but we only got as far as the match after the relic run. Which means, lots of failed attempts trying to get to halls. Lots. And lots.

I gave up because I figured the next time I find people willing to work with me like that is close to none. I've tried, but everyone doesn't do coordination like they tried to. It's this: you run a build. The team gets several builds that are currently used. No skill changes. Is everyone ready? GO! We fail. This isn't how I pictured the HA to work.

I at least figured there would be some coordination, what targets to hit, etc. I try to do the best I can. I turn off my music, I turn off my cell phone, I get on ventrilo/teamspeak, etc, to hear everything that needs to be done. Instead, it's no voice communication, people telling people what to do through team chat, and after we fail horribly everyone leaves the party.

If anyone would like to give me a chance, I like to run frontline.

(though, I doubt someone will.)

I can understand higher ranked players to refuse lesser end players like myself. For one, my title isn't even showable, so I can't prove that I'm rank 2, having the minimal experience that I have. I mean, on average when I PvE, the only people I take with me are guildies because I can trust their skill. Everytime I take a PUG, they end up ragequitting or screwing up everything. Though, I take them anyway because even if we fail, I'm still happy as long as some progress was made. I'm not out to be the best. I'm out to play Guild Wars in my spare time and have fun. :P

That's my two cents.

Sha Noran · Dec 27, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Higher rank indicates larger levels of dedication to winning. A R11 friend is more interested in winning than a r8 friend of mine because more fame is required to ding. The more people are interested in winning, the harder they'll try, and thus, higher ranked people are more likely to try harder than lower ranked people. I really think rank discrimination is as simple as that.

TheHaxor · Dec 27, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Higher rank indicates larger levels of dedication to winning. A R11 friend is more interested in winning than a r8 friend of mine because more fame is required to ding. The more people are interested in winning, the harder they'll try, and thus, higher ranked people are more likely to try harder than lower ranked people. I really think rank discrimination is as simple as that.

This is a bad argument. I've seen plenty of people give up for a while because they are so far away from their next title. It can go both ways. The only thing rank is an indicator for is battles won, therefore it is more likely that a higher ranked player is more knowledgeable about HA than a lower ranked player because they have participated in more winning battles.

elektra_lucia · Dec 27, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

A higher rank still shows they have dedicated more time to winning I guess.

Quote:

The only thing rank is an indicator for is battles won

No it's not. You could get loads of 40 fame hall wins, or you could win UW a lot. You could have got fame on a double fame weekend. You shouldn't bother explaining what rank is any more because it says it when you highlight the title. If you don't have the start of a title (0 fame) then wiki it.

Anyway, I'd like to point out. I do not go out of my way to help low rank people (unless in a strange helpful mood). I have hardly -EVER- had help in game when I have wanted/asked for it. So don't expect me to treat you (next person to PM me in game) any differently. I will join any rank group sometimes but that doesn't mean I'll go out of my way to help. I have wrote things on the forum to try help. The bottom line is, NO ONE (excluding myself) has EVER given a good argument as to why high rank people SHOULD play with low rank people that I have came across.

Yes I know I'm an arsehole, I don't doubt that. So don't waste time spamming me in game what an arsehole I am. If I thought it was impossible to make balanced groups, I'd perhaps help a bit more but I have access to an account with 0 fame. I had no great problems in making a group. People just need a back bone and some patience. If I'm invited to join your group and you're running a ridiculously bad skill bar then I'll just give some pointers but I'm not going to become a teacher.

I'll help for 3k per fame though.

Mika Sophiriel · Jan 03, 2008, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Interesting topic about... uh, humankind, lol

My opinion... Try to manage a guild as a company/sport team?

About the question "Why you need to help noobs?"
1) You are nice
2) This noob might be able to replace your best teammate (or yourself) one day. Of course this can be useful or dangerous depending on your leadership skills. It's good to have a backup
3) Few noobs with wild/nooby imagination can inspire a pro to develop a new build
4) You can train noobs to do what you are tired of
5) noob in one field can be pro in another field. Fair trade: you teach me HA, I teach you something else. I don't like the "3K per fame" idea though. Of course everything can be talked in terms of money/value, but hey if that's the case, I'd prefer real tutoring/money. (BTW, that's not non-profit "help," it's fair trade)
6) Etc. A lot of reasons, just name it

Next, how do you know the player is good or not by just looking the title? You never know whether it's the experienced person playing or someone else playing... (This doesn't happen a lot though) Suppose, I let my zero-experienced friend playing instead of very experienced me. This is the current level of Internet privacy, nothing I can do about it (Unless you are sick enough to ask for webcam on the player and monitor, lol) But after all, this title problem is a stastistical one. (The higher rank, the higher chance of pros)
Think of this way: It's also fun to discover talents

Do you prepare a 3-mins interview for each applicant to your guild?
1) Vent/TS?
2) Other PvP experience? Even in a FPS game?
3) Reference?
4) Then ask specific questions like :
"What you prefer to run in HA? How do you argue for your build?"
"What do you think of this skill in HA?"
"What will you do in this situation?"
"How do you counter this?"
etc.

Or duel the applicant once?

Then you decide to make the applicant as ttyl, guest, member, or even officer
Keep the good ones

Ok... You see I'm on the side of noobs. Yes, I'm R1! I'll see you somewhere in HA this weekend, hopefully (I want my bambi -_-+)

Kissable Krissy · Jan 03, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Well.... seeing as I am in Undead's guild... I have to agree with him. My boyfriend and I just got r9 and we have NO problem playing with our guildies-even the r0 guildies

. As long as they are there to learn and have fun, I have no problem playing with them.

I have no problem playing with someone that is low ranked IF they are willing to learn and don't expect me to just be farming them fame. When someone in HA asks for a build, I tend to whisper them a rather legitimate build and help them in any manner that I can-if I'm in the mood. There is no rule that says I have to help them.

If the low ranked or unranked person is just being a loud obnoxious noob, then he can stay that way and will be that way regardless if he is r1 or r11 and it would take more than 3k per fame to get me to help them.

I can hardly wait for this weekend when people that typically don't play HA are going to be in farming the UW and then whining when they are rolled by more experienced players.

wuzzman · Jan 03, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

lol. I end up joining pugs groups and it's funny how they go about rank. "OMG YOUR TITLE ISN'T SHOWING" *kick*. That wouldn't be nearly a problem if they were quite good. But usually they aren't. I haven't seen a single party leader or player obsessed with finding the r*+ that is actually so good at the game that they can demand that other players show their are leet-sauce before they come and lose to iway in the first round.

elektra_lucia · Jan 08, 2008, 06:57 PM // 18:57

There is no logic in what you are saying. They should not have to be good... If they want r10+ players, they don't know you and you don't title. Then so be it.

Quote:

that they can demand that other players show their are leet-sauce before they come and lose to iway in the first round.

Maybe they lose in first round because they invited an r3 player who said he was r9, and ended up playing extremely badly because of it?

*edit*

The point of this was, sometimes bad people lie a lot. They join a group, don't know how to play the game. Lose the match. With a title you try to minimize on that. Generally r9's are better than r3's.

xhappy feetx · Jan 08, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by elektra_lucia

There is no logic in what you are saying. They should not have to be good... If they want r10+ players, they don't know you and you don't title. Then so be it.

Maybe they lose in first round because they invited an r3 player who said he was r9, and ended up playing extremely badly because of it?

While Rank does generally show expierence and to some degree skill, I know of plently of people who are not ranked and still very good...

The problem is a non-ranked person needs a connection before this can be said of them

SixNine · Jan 08, 2008, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quite frankly rank doesn't really mean anything at all. You can be horrible and play all the time and be high ranked. You can play iway over and over and become high ranked. Thus rank doesn't translate into skill.

elektra_lucia · Jan 08, 2008, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Your post is garbage until you can comprehend what I have written. Which won't be any time soon.

Snow Bunny · Jan 09, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

elektra, while indeed you have gone into interesting paths with some of your arguments, I'll certainly agree with the point about learning.

Occasionally, I've gone into HA with maybe 5 other decent (r8-10) friends, our intent being that we find and take along 2 r0-r4's so that they can get a feel for the playing style.

Instead of them (the low rank pugs) critiquing their own playstyle after a match, be it win or loss, they often criticize us and flout their own success, or lack of failure.

I have a vivid memory of this, guesting for a r600 or so guild. We won the match, but the vent chatter was full of these people chewing me out. Granted, I made several errors, but none of them was really critical, nor really all that noticeable. Instead, these players should have looked at their own rather egregious errors. (i.e., The LoD constantly Drawing everyone's conditions to himself, and not allowing me [the RC] to do my job)

I remember my first several attempts as a monk in PvP were pathetic.
Then I discovered OBSERVER MODE. Even today, if I play 4 hours, around half of it is spent on observer mode, watching people monk, watching how they respond to situations, watch them predict damage spread, seeing if I can predict where they should be Spirit Bonding a target, which target should be RoF'd, et cetera.

My point here is that few players who want to get into good groups do this. Low ranked people should be thankful that there is an observer mode, so that there are real examples to learn from.

Most low rank players don't try to learn from their mistakes. That's why they're low ranked. Honestly, it has nothing to do with a lack of people to play with. Anyone in HA this weekend saw that there were plenty of unranked players. It has to do with initiative, and a willingness to learn, not a conspiracy to keep low ranked players low ranked.

If anything, playing against someone decent and high ranked is normally fun; at least it's a challenge.

Linzi The Elf · Jan 09, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Theres alot of good point in this thread and alot of bad ones but everyone has there point and most are valied for them.
So his mine.
I am not high ranked i am R5 i think i am a ok player but not great but i have been luckly in HA to get up to my R5 so far when i started HAing i was asked if i wanted to go by one of my friends and he was rank 5 and all the people were r5+ when i started and i was luckly to get in to a good group. But i am not gloating beceause i was luckly and got in to good groups i have improved my skill and playing style as i have learned i am not saying i play like my friends i play with but i am geting better and thats only because my willingness to learn and because they take the time to tech me were i go wrong and tell me how to improve, the diffrence between low and high ranked is great the diffrence is high rank make less mistakes and when they do they know how to make up from that mistakes were low ranked make more and most of the time dont know were they have gone wrong. i still make lots of mistakes my self and insted of people rageing they tell me were i have gone wrong and i try to improve on what i have done wrong.
After all it is up to the people who want to get in to high ranked groups to get better them self and the only way to get better is to play more and observe more and improve what they play and stop moaning your not geting in to high ranked groups most of the time you wont because most high ranked groups are not looking to babysit you. stop moaning about it and do something about it.

Dave-o · Jan 09, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Theres isn't really a reson to accept low ranked players. Most of them are retards, having no clue what to do and just blame the monk. but there are a few who may suck, but are willing to learn, but those arent given a chance, since trying to get a PuG together, will take you about an hour, you play for that PuG for 2/3 minutes, get whiped, 3 leave, the rest doesn't feel like trying and also leaves, leaving you alone.

The next thing would be have a team with the Guild/alliance, but most of them wouldn't be commited or hardly even show up. so that plan fails aswell.

Trying to get accepted by R6+ fails right away, since they know you'd mess up. you're new to this. Hell, even i know i'd mess up since i don't have the correct experience.

Join HA/GvG guilds. they also just accept ranked.

i'm still thinking of a way how a low ranked player could even get R1 in a conciderable ammount of time, not a hell lot of wins, but getting the right group, meh.

(aye, i'm newb, 2 fame to be precice (they go back 1 year or so)).

Lord Natural · Jan 09, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-o

i'm still thinking of a way how a low ranked player could even get R1 in a conciderable ammount of time, not a hell lot of wins, but getting the right group, meh.

The only real options are to endure the pain of unranked teams, or be fortunate enough to know like minded guildies or friends who are willing to start groups with you and learn together. If you go into ID1 and wait for a high ranked group to be charitable and let you in, you will have plenty of time to work on your drunkard title.

Also, now that double fame weekends come around every few months, it's really not that big of a deal to get r3, it just takes some time. There are enough heroways and randomways in UW and FR those weekends to grind some fame together. But even with that it takes some commitment. A lot of pvpers starting off with HA feel that drive to gain higher ranks and emotes to the point that they are willing to devote themselves to the cause. If you don't have that drive and only want that emote b/c it might be cool but actually dislike pvp, you'll tire of the grind quickly and quit.

Motoko Kusanagi War · Jan 10, 2008, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Rank discrimination is used as leverage to inaccurately gauge someone's experience in HA. They might not be good at the game, but with the rank they SHOULD (by standards) have common knowledge about HA. Rank is used these days as a norm of selection for pug's. To be honest, with today's rate of players, rank isn't valuable unless you have personal connections. So many bad players grinded and lamed their way to fame that the skill level between r3 and r10 is almost indistinguishable. But most people have the innate instinct to pick the bigger number.

If you are still in that r1-6 area or lack of connections area. What you need to do is (if you are brave) learn to be a leader. If you are truly as good and as experienced as you want people to believe, then make your own groups and teach people. I'm not saying sessions of teaching, but form serious groups, show people that you know what you are doing and teach them. By getting their respect, they will listen and play with you and get you to come play with them if they like you enough and get into a good group. If you are respected, you have the power, and if you have the power, you can choose who you play with and who you want to kick.

It's all about connections.
Take it from a r12, rank means shit. (The birdie is nice compensation though)

bk359 · Jan 10, 2008, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Given that a fair amount of low-ranked players want their emote and don't want to learn i understand the frustration with helping new players out. Like has been stated there are also a group of low ranked players that want to learn and are looking for any help they can get.

I am only r4 and like to think of myself in the need help group and willing to accept it. I really hate that alot of low ranked players complain about how rank doesn't matter and are arseholes to everyone thus repelling most of the r9's from helping. I think the rank doesn't matter is just an outlet for them to express their anger at not beign abel to find decent groups.

My biggest cocern, not neccesarly whine or complaint, is that when you have a low rank it is extremly hard to find a nice balanced pug where you can actually learn and improve. For example, this weekend during the double fame I was halfway between r3 and r4 and I probably got to run with about 3 balanced teams in total which generated alot of my fame compared to zerg/heroway.

I think alot these low ranked people that claim to be as good as r9's are just ignorant people in real life, but also that they haven't had a chance to experience playing with an organized r9 group. Yes I seem to be giving them the benefit of the doubt that these players don't mean to be jerks and just don't have a premis to judge themselves upon. Recently a freind of mine let me play with his group of friends in HA who are all very experienced and pretty darn good players. It was a whole new experience and I regret any thoughts i may have had in the past about being equally skilled. The first few runs into HA were just overwhelming with targets being constantly called for pressure, spike, diversions and such. I felt out of my league and exhausted at first, but at the same time I was just eating it up because this is the kind of pvp I always wanted to get into. Even just after going like 5-10 runs in to HA i was really starting to see when and how i screwed up and we eventually made it to halls and held for a couple matches. This is the kind of thing most people dont get to do, but what most people need drastically. So if you find a new player that is respectful and fun to play with he might just need oyu to let him in your groups every now and then.

R O C K Y · Jan 13, 2008, 03:59 PM // 15:59

There was a time when I helped a few people gain rank in HA that was quite low in rank r3/5 etc because mainly we became friends and they listened to me and that is the key thing WHY I don't give low ranks much time, they are generally arrogant in thinking EVERYTHING they do is gud or call NOOB on things that isn't current scrubway meta.

I don't mind people making even nub mistakes as long they admit it and learn or even just get better and try harder.

Finding these type of low ranked "humble" players is 1 in 100 and the reason why I wouldn't want to pug or befriend a newbie from the start.

God Apprentice · Jan 13, 2008, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Took an r2 in with us, he did alright, he kept blaming himself for being bad and apologizing, I told him not to do that, everyone starts at the beginning. We all gave him some advice on how to better himself, so overall, positive experience.

maraxusofk · Jan 16, 2008, 02:37 AM // 02:37

i cannot tell u how much win this thread is. i really want to play gvg at a high level after quitting tombs for almsot a year, but the same thing applies there. most people only want champ points and titles. while i do desire the title, i dont mind being raged at or playing with lower rank guilds to improve. i know that playing in gvg requires alot, so i dont mind having to learn if i do come up short. sadly, many players in the game only want e peen but not the actual skill that results in it.